Prison Times

[Swiftz]

I can't be the only one that thinks these new prison times stack up so extremely fast causing people to sit in jail for 4 hours for barely doing anything. Here are a few examples of situations where I think we could all agree that the times are ridiculous.

 

You are driving recklessly (only 90 mph which is really easy to go over without paying attention) the cops want to arrest you because they have a "0 tolerance policy" for reckless driving but you have one or two bags of meth on you. You do your best to get away driving all around the city with cops chasing you and eventually crash and get caught. 75 months right there an hour and 15 mins for running from the cops and having 2 bags of meth. 

 

You shoot someone trying to rob you and you don't have a gun license so you get in a stolen car and start running from the cops once again you crash and get caught. 100 months almost 2 hours in prison for defending yourself and now I'm sure some people will say "if you don't have a gun license just don't have a gun and you will be fine" you cant in this server with the people that constantly rob and shoot you need a gun if you don't want to be getting robbed every 20 mins or going to the hospital every 30 mins.

 

Now for a little more extreme situation, you are a felon who is robbing a bank with an ap pistol threatening to shoot the hostage if the cops don't give you free passage you flee from the bank and lead cops on a chase eventually crashing, you get out of your car and gun down 5 cops between you and your passenger. You try to run on foot but get gunned down by the 15 other cops responding to their panics. 240 months or 4 hours now, you could say, "Oh, that's not that bad for shooting cops”, but you also get probation or sentenced to the 9s for doing crime and trying to get away valuing your freedom.

 

Just in my opinion from being on both sides of it being crim and cop I just think making crims sit in prison for so long or so easily get probation or 9s is terrible and not fun, everyone is here to have fun and for lack of better terms when the cops “lose” they really don't lose anything besides a little bit of their time, but when a criminal “loses” they can easily lose millions and also have to sit in jail for hours. I just think that some of the penal code times need lowered considering we are playing a video game and not everyone plays here enough to sit in prison for over an hour for some petty crime.

 

This is just my opinion though so feel free to leave how you feel below or leave a suggestion.

[Gonk Cortes]

5 hours ago, Swiftz said:

This is just my opinion though so feel free to leave how you feel below or leave a suggestion

I'd love to have a discussion about this in an open forum where more people can chime in.  I've spoken with quite a few members of the community about this recently, as it's a hot topic of late.  This might be a bit of a long post, so buckle up.

First let me start by saying you make some great points!  The jail times given in 2 of your 3 examples were grossly incorrect though.  I've given screenshots of the appropriate charges with the time/fine below:

 

5 hours ago, Swiftz said:

You are driving recklessly (only 90 mph which is really easy to go over without paying attention) the cops want to arrest you because they have a "0 tolerance policy" for reckless driving but you have one or two bags of meth on you. You do your best to get away driving all around the city with cops chasing you and eventually crash and get caught. 75 months right there an hour and 15 mins for running from the cops and having 2 bags of meth. 

35 Months, not 75 months.

 

5 hours ago, Swiftz said:

You shoot someone trying to rob you and you don't have a gun license so you get in a stolen car and start running from the cops once again you crash and get caught. 100 months almost 2 hours in prison for defending yourself

This one is even stacked, and still less time than the example...

 

The third one you were pretty much spot on.

 

5 hours ago, Swiftz said:

you are a felon who is robbing a bank with an ap pistol threatening to shoot the hostage if the cops don't give you free passage you flee from the bank and lead cops on a chase eventually crashing, you get out of your car and gun down 5 cops between you and your passenger. You try to run on foot but get gunned down by the 15 other cops responding to their panics. 240 months or 4 hours

 

 

OK!  Now that quote/picture time is done... What did we learn from this?  Quite a few things actually!

 

First it's important to remember that these charges are all before any time is reduced due to officer discretion or lawyers are involved (I know, I know, we are very short on lawyers.  Believe me it's not for lack of trying).  Second we see that that simple act of running from the cops isn't really getting you much jail time at all.  That's important to remember.  Chases are fun!  They are the essence of what a lot of the excitement is about when it comes to cop RP.  It's what makes crim RP fun too!  The chase, and the escape!  Simply running from the cops and getting caught doing so, doesn't really get you much time in the slammer.  So what does?

Simply put?  Shooting cops.  1st Degree Assault of a Public Servant can stack up VERY quickly, and enough of them will get you a TON of probation.  I want you to really think about this though.  You are roleplaying an actual life here.  A REAL HUMAN LIFE.  You are making the choice to not only do crime, but to attempt to become a cop-killer.  That's a HUGE life choice, and should come with HUGE consequences. 

 

 I don't think anyone from the DOJ or server management has forgotten that this is a video game, and that we are all here to have fun.  Not at all.  I DO however think that sometimes people forget that we are supposed to be role playing a real life.  That our decisions are supposed to have long-term consequences for our characters.  

 

 

Now on to the prison sentences...  I have done some research on my criminal character and some number crunching while doing jail time.  After serving my fair share of jail sentences I've come up with some rough numbers.  Check it out:

 

If you are in prison and there's no DOC around (I hear that complaint a lot, so for this discussion I'll just assume that they aren't around when you're in jail) you can reduce your time by doing various mini-games and activities within Rikers.  I don't want to go into too much detail here, for fear of being called out for "meta-gaming", but I can tell you that if done properly and efficiently you can reduce your sentence using these activities by up to 40-45%!

 

That 230 month sentence just became as low as 127 months!  Is it going to be the most fun and interactive time that you've spent in the server?  Yeah, probably not.  I can tell you that on my criminal character, I actually enjoy going to prison even when I'm the only one there.  I usually end up recouping my fines and even making money by the time I come out.  It's all about perspective and attitude.

 

All this being said, I'm not opposed to new ideas at all.  I've been on both sides of the penal code, both new and old.  I've spoken with crims and lawyers, cops and judges about the jail times.  One of the judges and I were talking the other day about a maximum jail time (there used to be one), what it would be, and the pros/cons of the idea.  I'd love to hear more from everyone about this!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Gonk Cortes

[Swiftz]

6 hours ago, Gonk Cortes said:

I'd love to have a discussion about this in an open forum where more people can chime in.  I've spoken with quite a few members of the community about this recently, as it's a hot topic of late.  This might be a bit of a long post, so buckle up.

First let me start by saying you make some great points!  The jail times given in 2 of your 3 examples were grossly incorrect though.  I've given screenshots of the appropriate charges with the time/fine below:

 

35 Months, not 75 months.

Felony Evading 20 Months

Reckless Driving 10 Months

Possession of a Controlled Substance 20 Months

Reckless Endangerment 25 Months

75 months I personally have seen a LOT of cops immediatly go for Felony Evading over fleeing and also been adding Reckless Endangerment just because its a lot of time and applys to a lot of situations.

 

 

6 hours ago, Gonk Cortes said:

 

This one is even stacked, and still less time than the example...

Felony Evading 20 Months

Reckless Driving 10 Months

1st Degree ASsault 20 Months

Reckless Endangerment 25 Months

Unlawful Discharge 10 Months

Joyriding 15 Months

 

The third one you were pretty much spot on.

This is about what I used for the times.

 

 

 

As for the "prison minigames" ah yes hit e every 30 seconds very enjoyable minigame and rp. I will agree that it is heavily dependent on what cop you get for how long you get 2 different officers could send someone off for 25 months or 1.5 hours for the same situation just by how they decide to charge you.

[Celseus]

My In-Game Brother sat in prison for literally 5.5+ hours; 20,000+ seconds. 
He's currently in the 9's and is literally waiting around 36 days to hear back about his sentence after talking to lawyers.
That's more days then a ban if you did something that broke server rules. (other then perm)
Does that not ping anything in anyone's head about how the system is completely cracked? 
In all seriousness, is anyone dealing with this system, actually thinking?
It's a game, not a full-time or part-time Job. 
How do you expect someone to take anything seriously in this city when you're literally sending people to sit in prison for 5.5+ hours of their lives, as if that's nothing. 
And no, he didn't disrespect any cops during his process of being jailed. It's disgusting how some of ya'll rationalize the system. 

[Gonk Cortes]

14 hours ago, Celseus said:

My In-Game Brother sat in prison for literally 5.5+ hours; 20,000+ seconds. 
He's currently in the 9's and is literally waiting around 36 days to hear back about his sentence after talking to lawyers.
That's more days then a ban if you did something that broke server rules. (other then perm)
Does that not ping anything in anyone's head about how the system is completely cracked? 
In all seriousness, is anyone dealing with this system, actually thinking?
It's a game, not a full-time or part-time Job. 
How do you expect someone to take anything seriously in this city when you're literally sending people to sit in prison for 5.5+ hours of their lives, as if that's nothing. 
And no, he didn't disrespect any cops during his process of being jailed. It's disgusting how some of ya'll rationalize the system. 

     

 

     I can tell you that no one goes to jail for 5.5 hours for nothing.  You’re not getting a sentence like that for jaywalking.  If you think that you or someone you know got a ridiculous, unfair, or unnecessary sentence, put in a PD complaint.  They do work, I promise.  Everyone just assumes that because they don’t hear the result of it, nothing happens.  All of this ties into my prior post though…

 

     This is all about perspective, attitude, and taking roleplay seriously.  If someone is serving time THAT severe, chances are they either stacked a TON of warrants or committed some very hefty crimes and got caught.  Actions have consequences.  Everyone seems to be all about the running and gunning, but when it comes time to serve the time they all get squeamish.  We are roleplaying real lives, and you can’t have one without the other if you get caught.  I’d love to know the story of the above arrest that involved 5+ hours; because I can tell you that a time like that is so incredibly rare it usually involves multiple insane warrants being served at once.  

 

     As for your friend sitting in the 9s right now…  You should have him reach out to me if he’s concerned that he’s going to be in there for too long.  Everyone takes their RP in a different direction.  Some people go into the 9s with the intention of not playing that character again for a long time.  Some people don’t want to come back out of the 9s for a while.  Some people want to get out right away.  Unfortunately, I cannot read minds so unless someone reaches out, I don't know if there’s an issue.  

 

     As I said before, the DOJ is open to ideas.  If you have ideas to improve things you can always bring them up, or even reach out to me.  I’d love to hear them.

 

 

[Revvenga]

For me I don't believe people should be spending 200+ minutes in prison for the 9s I sort of understand it I think having the 9s is a good thing, but for most crimes spending so many minutes inside of the prison even so when not much is happening is crazy to me.

[Celseus]

16 hours ago, Gonk Cortes said:

     

 

     I can tell you that no one goes to jail for 5.5 hours for nothing.  You’re not getting a sentence like that for jaywalking.  If you think that you or someone you know got a ridiculous, unfair, or unnecessary sentence, put in a PD complaint.  They do work, I promise.  Everyone just assumes that because they don’t hear the result of it, nothing happens.  All of this ties into my prior post though…

 

     This is all about perspective, attitude, and taking roleplay seriously.  If someone is serving time THAT severe, chances are they either stacked a TON of warrants or committed some very hefty crimes and got caught.  Actions have consequences.  Everyone seems to be all about the running and gunning, but when it comes time to serve the time they all get squeamish.  We are roleplaying real lives, and you can’t have one without the other if you get caught.  I’d love to know the story of the above arrest that involved 5+ hours; because I can tell you that a time like that is so incredibly rare it usually involves multiple insane warrants being served at once.  

 

     As for your friend sitting in the 9s right now…  You should have him reach out to me if he’s concerned that he’s going to be in there for too long.  Everyone takes their RP in a different direction.  Some people go into the 9s with the intention of not playing that character again for a long time.  Some people don’t want to come back out of the 9s for a while.  Some people want to get out right away.  Unfortunately, I cannot read minds so unless someone reaches out, I don't know if there’s an issue.  

 

     As I said before, the DOJ is open to ideas.  If you have ideas to improve things you can always bring them up, or even reach out to me.  I’d love to hear them.

 

 

He had No warrants out for his arrest.
He participated in a bank robbery with NO Guns, NO nothing on him. All he did was teach someone how to hack into the bank. 
Police literally shoot the guy outside holding the door (because it's the only way police can hear them) and breach the bank. Meanwhile, my In-game brother, is literally standing on a wall with his hands up, and police literally unload an entire AR magazine on him while he has his hands up. 
4 PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE ROBBERY. 3 OF THEM LEAVE WITHIN AN HOUR. 1 OF THEM STAYS IN THERE FOR 5.5+ HOURS. ???
He literally had to go to T.S to ask if that was a mistake or if it's actually serious that he has to sit for 5.5+ hours in jail with literally little to no one there.
Is this your RP? 

Unfortunately, it's not really just about the police if the system itself is cracked. 

I've literally been jailed for speeding 20 over. Police search me, sees I have body armor in my inventory and I get charged for 'UNLAWFUL WEARING OF BODY ARMOR'
If wearing it means having it, change your wording, and what's worse is that this was an Admin. 

If I had the ambitions to send you ideas. I would, but in all honesty, what I've witnessed, what I've experienced and what I've heard from others, I literally just don't have that ambition anymore. 
I joined DOC a while back to actually try and do something about how disgusting the system is but my ambitions dwindled so fast. I thought RP was about having fun and enjoying the experience and respecting other peoples experiences. 
Just because "real life" works one way, doesn't mean you have to abide by the same systemic standards. It's RP, not Real Life. 
You have people driving tiny cars at the same time someone is sitting in jail for 5.5+ hours. 
Hello? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Celseus

[Darius Tides]

THIS... is exactly why the DOJ is a thing.  If this would have been brought to us through a lawyer, this wouldn't have been a thing.  IF this is exactly how it went down, the odds are your "Brother" could have walked out of either a docket or a court room with a pretty fat pay day for the PD screw up here.  This stuff happens, and get thrown out more often then you could ever possibly realize.  

The system isn't CRACKED... the majority of the time, this system works in favor of the PEOPLE.  Literally if you didn't join DOC and actually went to the DOJ, so you could SEE what happens behind the scenes, you might understand more.  Going to the DOC, what changes can you make just basically dealing with the aftermath?  

"Unlawful Wearing of Body Armor" was the old penal code.  
S3.40  "Unlawful Wearing or Possession of Body Armor"
That was literally one of the first changes made when writing the new penal code.  

Bottom line, there's always going to be exceptions.  The majority of jail sentences is nowhere NEAR this.  This was a massive mistake, again... IF this was exactly how things went down, and could have been corrected by the DOJ.  Especially with the new penal code, we are STILL within the learning curve for the PD.  A lot of people are getting pissed off and letting shit slide that they simply should not be.  #LAWYERUP

Edited May 24, 2022 by Darius Tides

[George Nelson]

I'm going to wax poetic on this topic because I see it coming up a lot in the Discord chat and frankly, I'm tired of hearing it.  No names will be mentioned but if you feel attacked or targeted, eat it and shut it.  I don't want to hear it in my DMs.  You want to discuss, let's discuss. 

1.  Very few of you, even those who have "done time" in the DoJ, know just how much work being a good lawyer is.  Let me stress that, a GOOD lawyer.  I was just okay and it was like a full time job with the DMs, people constantly pinging me, IN A FUCKING DM, at 4 AM, expecting me to put on my Constitution cloak, fly in, and save them from their own stupid actions. I say this because, there hasn't been many GOOD attorneys in the city.  Those of you who claim to have experience with the DoJ, you applied, passed the BAR, were an attorney for a week or two, made a shitload of cash on retainers, then dipped when you lost a case or didn't understand the process, instead of ASKING for help. 

Why does everyone quit?  Because this is work.  It takes effort to actually roleplay an attorney on either side of the court room effectively.  And the few, very few of us who did so, found it rewarding and hung around. 

2.  No, you did not get 100 months for speeding, you're full of shit.  I love when I see this in general because I know right off, there's a laundry list of other crap attached to that ticket that the complainer left out, in an attempt to make a half assed plea for mercy to a moderator to step in, because you cannot face the actions of your consequences. 

 

In character actions equal in character consequences. 

 

3.  Have you tried being a better criminal?  Have you tried not posting on Twitter about robbing a bank, which bank, and who you're doing it with?  Have you tried not carrying an automatic in legion or maze?  Or how about...you know, instead of throwing down with the police over 100,000 in a store robbery, you take the L and not open fire on the responding officers?  Better yet, plead the fucking fifth.  I was an attorney for quite a long time and I have met, two, maybe three criminals who actually are GOOD at being a criminal.  Not good at crime but at just not being caught.  And when caught, shut up, don't say anything.  The police are talking to you for a reason, to get evidence and pin more crimes on you.  I'd say a good, seven out of ten times while in city, when called to the cells as an attorney, the client ALREADY admitted to everything and only lawyered up after the officer told them their charges. 

4.  When there was no DoJ, everyone complained. 

 

The old penal code, everyone complained. 

 

But the neat trick here is, the new penal code is based on the old one.  The times weren't even modified that much.  The charges were narrowed down and made more specific so that they COULDN'T be stacked as hard as they were.  Crimes against public servants had stricter punishments, the officers just didn't pursue them often, in my opinion, because doing the math of 1.5 times the base fines and times wasn't easy to do because while processing seven people in MRPD, then six more got downed in Maze, and they had to rush out to deal with that. 

Regardless, it seems like everyone is going to complain.  Except nobody wants to do it in the right way.

 

  "It's not worth the effort to make a concentrated effort to try and better a community I participate in, instead I'll just whine with everyone cheering me on."  - General feel of the diatribes I've seen about the DoJ.  Everyone knows how to do it better apparently but there's only a handful of us actually doing it and honestly, when I see so many people bitching, I wonder why I fucking bother.  You want change?  Make it happen. 

 

5.  Prison time, I tend to agree with most.  They are excessive when you work a full time job, have kids, a family, etc and other obligations.  But here's the thing...as mentioned above, sentences get reduced, easily.  I've had 600 month sentence and it was chopped in half for holding the door for a DoC officer.  I'm not saying the times aren't excessive, I agree, they can be but when you have people in prison, it can actually be fun RP.  If you choose instead to leave FiveM running and watch Netflix, then that's on you. 

For the record, I argued against times being so harsh.  HOWEVER, given how you, yes you, and me,  the community in general, inflated the economy over the years, we can't do stricter monetary sentences which mean anything to someone with 250 Mil in the bank and 500 mil in storage.  Because averagegamerwhojustjoined with 600,000 in his pocket, would be in debt for eternity if we based the fines on how much actual cash moves through the city. 

6. 9s.  They also suck.  There are things which people don't consider, which I'll point out below. 

Can't get a lawyer?  Represent yourself.  We have an entire section in our discord just for people self representing.  Reach out to a judge or anyone with a DoJ tag in Discord and we can get it sorted for you. 

Bail.  This is reviewed on a case by case basis.  Basically if you're not a shitlord, you'll likely get approved for bail and be on probation until your court date. 

Plea deals.  Every attorney wants these and when they don't get them, they throw a fit and quit.  Why are they denied?  Again, because of the player.  There's a record of how the character acts in custody, there's a file of recent arrests, including recent 9s arrests.  Get the 9s every six - eight weeks?  Guess what, you're not getting a plea deal. 

Court.  Go to court, take it to court.  Insist on court.  I've done this many many times, as an attorney while I was available and other parties weren't, I told the DoJ members simply, "Hey, if we're not having court for this guy by this date, then he needs to be released."  Even if you're found guilty, you'll likely get a lesser sentence than a plea deal and all within the same time frame.  The flip side, if court can't be scheduled, then it's only reasonable that a plea deal be offered. 

Hell, we even stopped with probation and misdemeanor offenses returning someone back to the 9s, to stop the 9s to probation back to 9s cycle that was going on.  And many of those instances where a person went back in?  Was their own doing because they decided to cop bait, or not stop, or to stab a local or open carry.  It was very rare where an officer just did a random search, found something illegal, and kicked someone back to the 9s.  Not saying it didn't happen but for how many people I represented, it was exceedingly rare that someone who was thrown back in for breaking probation was innocent or just a bystander. 

 

To sum up this longwinded reply; if you can do it better, go for it. 

DoJ is hiring.

[Celseus]

Most of your audience, player base and people going to jail, are people who don’t know how the system works, children or just outright immature people. It’s a game, not real life. A concept that goes over most of your heads because you’ve absorbed yourselves so much that you forget to realize what’s actually real life, and what’s a video game. 

 

I joined DOC with the intention to see how every aspect of how the system can be handled and is handled from the ground up. 

Im not going to be joining DOJ with no backbone on how other departments work with real-time experience. 

The individual has already spoken to two lawyers. Two, not just one. 

You should have his case on file considering he’s been waiting, not my responsibility, nor is it his to continue waiting when he’s inquired with two lawyers already and I know for a fact that it’s in your case files in your DOJ DC. 

 

I didn’t join DOC so that I can become an asshole and screw people over just because they don’t know how the system works, but I do.  My actions as a DOC was to represent those who didn’t understand how it works. I probably talked to criminals and informed them more then the DOJ about how the system works, what they can do next time, How to contact one of you, and what they should do next time they’re in a situation like they’re in now. I can gaurentee you, simple and true representation comes from actually being aware of who you’re working with, dealing with or interacting with. But since some of you guys can’t tell the difference between fact and fiction when playing a video game, it’s no wonder why the cycle repeats and people voice their complaints. 

 

Know your audience/player base.

 

I know how the system works, which is why I choose not to screw people over. 

Like i’ve said, at the end of the day, this is a game, not real life. Look at your audience and player base and move accordingly, BCRP is not serious RP, so much so that they needed to make a 2.0 to address how not-so serious it currently is.

 

I wonder why it’s not so serious? 

Ask yourself the questions you should be asking. Because like i’ve said, know your player base. 

 

it’s like speaking french to english speakers, they won’t understand you and you all move and do your jobs as if they do or will understand how the system works. They didn’t join BCRP to get a degree in systemic concepts. This is what most of you fail to understand and is a huge reason why a significant portion of the player base feels unrepresented. 

 

If all you want to do is talk about how your systems make sense or how it works or how people whine and complain but don’t want to be the change, grow up; It’s the same rhetoric over and over again, your complaints and responses are as repetitive as those complaining. You respond to them to be the change and yet you yourself refuse to change or come up with new ideas. If it’s not your responsibility but the responsibility of those complaining, then it’s equally your responsibility if you decide to address their complaints and is a perfect example of how little you take into consideration your player base. 

 

You have all the ideas already there, but you choose not to extrapolate them and move in accordance to your player base. More people become screwed-over, and if you think that’s not your job to put in ideas with your audience in mind, then go ahead don’t, but know your system is cracked and know the cycle will continue, already is continuing and already has been continuing. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Celseus

[StrikerzRyan]

So.. a police perspective here (if you want to call it that).

 

Maybe it's just because I'm not aggressive when it comes to charges because I'm just here to have fun, but I almost never give people more than 30 minutes in prison. The last time I did was because they violated their probation and I had no choice (though I did reduce their time by way over half). Why? Because it's not fun to stare at walls or play trash collecting simulator. Department of Corrections has been more prevalent recently which has been nice, but it's been my experience that they're constantly going back and forth to pickup more prisoners so thus wouldn't be there to RP with the inmates anyway. But maybe that's just due to the time that I play which is not prime time. 

 

From an in-character perspective as a police officer, yes all crime is bad and people need to be punished accordingly. But looking at it out of character, police rely on criminal activity to for their RP otherwise they'd be bored. So to me, why would I put someone, who has given my character roleplay and something to do, in jail for prolonged periods of time when that means that they cannot give me roleplay? 

 

I will agree that serious crime should meet serious time, but as was mention previously, the server is nowhere near serious enough to justify it.

 

On 5/21/2022 at 10:37 AM, Gonk Cortes said:

I want you to really think about this though.  You are roleplaying an actual life here.  A REAL HUMAN LIFE.  You are making the choice to not only do crime, but to attempt to become a cop-killer.  That's a HUGE life choice, and should come with HUGE consequences.

It is really hard to justify this line of thinking because all "first degree assault of a Public Servant" entails is them laying in the hospital for 200 seconds and then suddenly they are good as new and ready to get into their next shootout (the exact same argument applies to criminals). When the value of life and value of injuries is properly roleplayed on BOTH sides, then we can talk about "HUGE life choices" being relevant to prison time. But for now we might as well regard guns as paintball guns that don't really cause risk of life threatening injury. But that is not to be misconstrued as a bad thing. BigCity is action-based RP and there's nothing wrong with that; my point is just that "serious RP" shouldn't be used to try and justify exacerbated prison times.

[Celseus]

42 minutes ago, StrikerzRyan said:

So.. a police perspective here (if you want to call it that).

 

Maybe it's just because I'm not aggressive when it comes to charges because I'm just here to have fun, but I almost never give people more than 30 minutes in prison. The last time I did was because they violated their probation and I had no choice (though I did reduce their time by way over half). Why? Because it's not fun to stare at walls or play trash collecting simulator. Department of Corrections has been more prevalent recently which has been nice, but it's been my experience that they're constantly going back and forth to pickup more prisoners so thus wouldn't be there to RP with the inmates anyway. But maybe that's just due to the time that I play which is not prime time. 

 

From an in-character perspective as a police officer, yes all crime is bad and people need to be punished accordingly. But looking at it out of character, police rely on criminal activity to for their RP otherwise they'd be bored. So to me, why would I put someone, who has given my character roleplay and something to do, in jail for prolonged periods of time when that means that they cannot give me roleplay? 

 

I will agree that serious crime should meet serious time, but as was mention previously, the server is nowhere near serious enough to justify it.

 

It is really hard to justify this line of thinking because all "first degree assault of a Public Servant" entails is them laying in the hospital for 200 seconds and then suddenly they are good as new and ready to get into their next shootout (the exact same argument applies to criminals). When the value of life and value of injuries is properly roleplayed on BOTH sides, then we can talk about "HUGE life choices" being relevant to prison time. But for now we might as well regard guns as paintball guns that don't really cause risk of life threatening injury. But that is not to be misconstrued as a bad thing. BigCity is action-based RP and there's nothing wrong with that; my point is just that "serious RP" shouldn't be used to try and justify exacerbated prison times.

 

Thank you for this insight, especially considering it's coming from a different party. 

Having worked as DOC, I will say that the transport and waiting times during the process of transport is lengthy, Prison RP is limited to any of the DOC available, any visitors and any other prisoners, whether that be a good or bad experience. Most Prisoners would rather interact with a good DOC officer considering they're the ones who'd give them time off. And even then, there are (SOME) DOC officers that exhibit behaviors that are not considerate to those in prison, regardless of prisoner behavior. What you give is what you get and I have never been disrespected by prisoners because I treated everyone with respect, I respected their time and took into consideration that my "Job" as a DOC officer is not a REAL occupation. But that's besides the point. 

 

If the case was this was a "serious" RP server, I'd like to see some officers bed-ridden for weeks with spinal injury where they'd potentially need a wheelchair from getting a whole clip of an AR unloaded onto them. Or maybe we should all DOA considering all the mishaps we've all personally had in our time in BCRP if you'd like to take it to such an extent. I will repeat myself: You have people driving tiny cars at the same time someone is sitting in jail for 5.5+ hours. 

There should be no reason in someone's head to rationalize the "serious" nature of a video game when a significant portion of your player base treats the game, as a video game and not real life. They did not come into BCRP to sit in jail for 15$-20$ an hour, as if this is real life. 

I just wish feedback was actually taken into consideration instead of just bringing out the same old rhetoric to join DOJ, to be the change, it's not rocket science. You're sitting on your desk playing a video game, what's so hard to understand the nature of video games and realizing what's real and what isn't and taking that into account? 
Not to be rude or disrespectful, but out of pure necessity and complete transparency, to be entirely honest; If you're not willing to take in feedback from the community that deals with the laws and systems you create in said community from any and every angle, I firmly believe you should not be in charge of said laws and systems that govern the community. You are unfit to lead by example. I would not for a second of my life join a group of people who tell me to join them when they cannot take in feedback from a person(s) in their own community. 

[Gonk Cortes]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:14 PM, Celseus said:

I just wish feedback was actually taken into consideration instead of just bringing out the same old rhetoric to join DOJ, to be the change, it's not rocket science. You're sitting on your desk playing a video game, what's so hard to understand the nature of video games and realizing what's real and what isn't and taking that into account? 

Up until now, I’ve kept my responses limited and brief.  However, I’d like to make some points for you.  

 

You’ve made a lot of assumptions throughout your replies on this thread.  You seem to have a good head on your shoulders.  Why would you make so many assumptions when trying to so fervently argue a point?  The premises for many of the arguments you have made in the statements above are simply wrong and baseless.  Let me share some insight with you, since you have absolutely no way of knowing they are wrong.

 

1.  The DOJ is acutely aware of the difference between real life and a video game.  If we weren’t, you would be getting FAR more screwed over by the cops on a daily basis.  (You’ll just have to trust me on this one)  This is why there are a very limited number of case laws allowed to be used and argued within the city’s justice system.  Our criminal justice system exists in a bubble.  Yes, we know that bubble is based in a fantasy world.

 

2.  “I thought RP was about having fun and enjoying the experience and respecting other people's experiences.” What about the RP of all the lawyers, judges, paralegals, judicial clerks, DA, ADA,s, and prosecutors?  Or do we not respect their experiences?

 

3.  “Know your audience/player base.”  Sage advice.  When the current iteration of the penal code was being written, I spent somewhere in the ballpark of HUNDREDS of hours literally just talking to people.  Not within the DOJ, but people outside of the DOJ.  NYPD, NYSP, FDNY, small-time criminals, major crims, people with clean records, people with sealed records that had turned their lives around… Every kind of person you can think of.  I asked all kinds of questions.  Most of them didn’t even know who I was at the time.  I was just another guy, talking about how the cops were screwing everyone over, or how the “system” was stacked against the little guy.  I wanted to hear what the average person thought of the laws that governed the city, in character, and organically.   This leads to the next point:

 

4.  Feedback from the community IS taken into consideration.  In a VERY big way.  Every suggestion that we get is not only read or listened to but discussed at length.  It may take a while to get to them because it’s a small department and sometimes there are a lot of suggestions coming in at once.  But we legitimately do listen, and consider every suggestion, no matter how absurd it may seem on the face of it.  There’s the big problem though, and you don’t need to look any further than the mirror to see a shining example of this…

 

5.  People don’t actually make suggestions.  They complain.  There’s a big difference.  Read that again. 

 

This is a community issue.  People like to complain about a problem without actually trying to offer up any potential solutions.  Ok, I do hear you that you think prison times are too long.  I’m sure in your mind it’s simple: “Well gee guys, just make prison times shorter, DUH.”  It’s not that simple.  Which charges get shorter sentences?  All of them?  By a flat amount?  By a percentage?  Wouldn’t some then have no prison time?  Would some charges then have to be considered misdemeanors?  Would some misdemeanors then have to be dropped to violations?  Would they then no longer violate probation standards?  If we drop times too much, at what point is it no longer “action-based RP”(as Stryker put it) and it’s just rewarding a giant TDM? Ok, if we can’t do them all at once, then we need to go through all the charges individually and rebalance the jail time on them all…  

 

This is looked at with jail time, fines, violations, probation, 9s, search warrants, etc.  All at the same time.  And they all interact with each other too.  It’s a complex system, no matter how fake it is. 

 

Hopefully, you see what I’m getting at here.  At no point in this discussion has anyone offered any potential solutions to a problem that’s been presented.  So yes, we are listening, and we are working on things constantly.  However, it takes time.  Just in this thread, you have been given examples of charges changing.  Every day, new changes are made to the system.  If it’s not moving fast enough for your liking… you could always help out.  

 

The DOJ is hiring. 

[Celseus]

Thanks for this. 
I'd begin by saying, considering you suggested I had "So many assumptions", I can't help but re-read what I've wrote and see where and what were my assumptions. What arguments do you think I'm suggesting? What are my claims? What exactly do you understand from what I've been suggesting that made you believe that I have an argument to present? 

• The idea that : "There should be no reason in someone's head to rationalize the "serious" nature of a video game when a significant portion of your player base treats the game, as a video game and not real life." ?
• Or  was the assumption "I just wish feedback was actually taken into consideration instead of just bringing out the same old rhetoric to join DOJ, to be the change, it's not rocket science. You're sitting on your desk playing a video game, what's so hard to understand the nature of video games and realizing what's real and what isn't and taking that into account? " if so, then that's one singular assumption. 

You do realize that a good portion of NYPD are actual people within OOC PD positions or people who idolize/admire PD culture, with the select few that just RP to RP it. 
I don't think you realize the extent of the points I was making when I keep suggesting the difference between real-life and a video game, because like I said, It's a systemic issue that runs deeper than simple laws in a Penal Code and has alot to do with mindsets people inhibit in and out of the game where they've absorbed themselves to the point of exhausting the capacity to separate thoughts/feelings and behaviors from a video game and the truth being, it's not real life. It's psychological.
Those are not assumptions. Those are insights and observations that wouldn't have been made possible without interacting with people on a daily basis in and out of the city for months if not years. 
This is also what I mean by, "Know your player base" ; Connecting back to the fact that most of the people in BCRP are "people who don’t know how the system works, children or just outright immature people." 
I have a criminal Character and had a DOC character. I interacted with many people within several spectrums because of my involvement in the city, I've seen court RP, I've seen Lawyers RP, Cop RP, I was still present to see interactions if I wasn't directly involved. 
Dimming down peoples complaints as just "complaints" is another example of how you are unable to see feedback. What you deem to be complaints can still be used as information in a constructive manner. Why do you insist on thinking someone should present solutions, as if discussions, complaints, arguments and feedback of any kind are not answers themselves. Read the lines, are you not a Judge? Critical thinking should not be hard for you. 
Bare with me in this metaphor, but simply imagine you have a baby in your arms, flaying around because you're feeding them something they don't think tastes good. The baby has no capacity to communicate other then to flay around and cry. To which I'd ask, would you dim the babies actions as simply complaining, are things that simple for you that you're unable to decipher how someone feels and why someone feels the way they do or even coming to a comprehension of trying to understand? 
I will repeat myself, It's psychological. Feedback is feedback and connecting back, once again, your player base are ""people who don’t know how the system works, children or just outright immature people."  As well as " it’s like speaking French to English speakers, they won’t understand you and you all move and do your jobs as if they do or will understand how the system works. " 

If the case is true that "Every day, new changes are made to the system. " Then, not to be rude, but it seems like a majority of people in this community have trouble properly communicating the constant changes that are occurring. (Not talking about teasers for 2.0, please tell me when the last appropriate change was talked about in change-log that was updated that wasn't about cars) Would it make it easier to suggest a solution, like actually properly communicating those Constant changes, or works in progress with the community, so that the community doesn't have to "assume" that nothings been changing? It's not rocket science. 
Considering you have a good head on your shoulders as well, I'm sure you can realize that if you're not getting any solutions from anyone the way you'd want to receive them, maybe you should look deeper instead of thinking all it is are complaints. 
I get we're not perfect human beings, but thinking is free. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Celseus

[Manny elephant]

So I to been spending big times in rikers. Due to big crimes committed. 

4 to 5 hours is usually the norm by the time I get arrested but this is also fitting the crimes that happen.

 

My city time is usually very limited. And spending 4/5h in rikers takes 1 or 2 evenings of rp away from me. 

It's like a real punishment cause it renders my char useless.

 

It becomes to the point that my Crim is now sitting in rikers for a month cause I just don't have time or drive to spam my e button 200times. While watching YouTube on the side. I'm in the city for rp. Not for spamming e

 

A Tought that crossed my mind. And a suggestion i would like to bring is. Maybe make it a "tier system"

 

If you have a total of 4 charges 

You have a max sentence of 1 hour. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation. 

 

If you have 6 charges. You have a max sentence of 2h. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation

 

Over 8 charges max sentence 3hours. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation.

 

No clue if this is managble or a good idea. 

But I do feel theres a minimal of bigger crime story's in new York because players are worried about the time it takes to get out of rikers. 

 

Would love to hear other people's perspective on a possible tier system

 

[Trappers Lady]

Honestly if time was lowered a lot regarding charges, people would just non stop do them and keep getting arrested.

And if a LEO stacks charges, take your case to court.

 

But honestly, i dont care if people do chases, but it does get annoying when like 95% of the city just want to do shootouts with cops and then complain when they get charged for it.

This isnt cops vs robbers or a shooter simulation. Those people take the fun out of RP also for LEO's,not just for other crims or civilians.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Trappers Lady

[George Nelson]

10 hours ago, Manny elephant said:

So I to been spending big times in rikers. Due to big crimes committed. 

4 to 5 hours is usually the norm by the time I get arrested but this is also fitting the crimes that happen.

 

My city time is usually very limited. And spending 4/5h in rikers takes 1 or 2 evenings of rp away from me. 

It's like a real punishment cause it renders my char useless.

 

It becomes to the point that my Crim is now sitting in rikers for a month cause I just don't have time or drive to spam my e button 200times. While watching YouTube on the side. I'm in the city for rp. Not for spamming e

 

A Tought that crossed my mind. And a suggestion i would like to bring is. Maybe make it a "tier system"

 

If you have a total of 4 charges 

You have a max sentence of 1 hour. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation. 

 

If you have 6 charges. You have a max sentence of 2h. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation

 

Over 8 charges max sentence 3hours. Every hour or 30minutes extra according to the penal code turns into a day of probation.

 

No clue if this is managble or a good idea. 

But I do feel theres a minimal of bigger crime story's in new York because players are worried about the time it takes to get out of rikers. 

 

Would love to hear other people's perspective on a possible tier system

 

This isn't a bad idea, I would be for something like this to be honest. 

However, what we have found is there's a Probation ---> 9s ---> Probation--->9s cycle, so much so that for sentencing of people getting out of the 9s, we stopped adding probation on at all and this has been in effect for a few months, so though it probably doesn't show to those who GET the 9s, we are actually seeing less people in the 9s than previous.  So if we commute the excess time above an hour to probation, we'll probably see more people in for the 9s for probation violations.

 

But I completely agree, the sentencing seems to revolve around those who (good for them, not resentment) are in the city for several hours a day at least.  That's not the case for everyone, so it can dampen things when you've got a long sentence and you only have an hour or two to play. 

 

 

[Swiftz]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:12 AM, Trappers Lady said:

Honestly if time was lowered a lot regarding charges, people would just non stop do them and keep getting arrested.

And if a LEO stacks charges, take your case to court.

 

But honestly, i dont care if people do chases, but it does get annoying when like 95% of the city just want to do shootouts with cops and then complain when they get charged for it.

This isnt cops vs robbers or a shooter simulation. Those people take the fun out of RP also for LEO's,not just for other crims or civilians.

 

 

Would you prefer people use 7 bikes or 200+ mph cars and get away and then continue hitting banks without going to jail or would you prefer them going to jail for less time but being able to have a fun chase with cars where even if they dont get away they can come back later and do it. The PD and the penal code literally forces people to be shitlords because if you dont use a crazy fast car or a bunch of bikes and they give you the response of 3 cars, su, mu, air-1 and spiking like you are in some crazy fast car they wont be able to catch is rediculous.

 

My takeaway recently has been it dosent matter what vehicle you use, how many people you have, how many hostages you've taken, how many car swaps you've done. There is just shy of an ESU deployment, 9s warrant level of response from pd for the majority of situations. and this is 100% a cops vs robbers server if everyone stopped doing crime what would the cops do? drive around all day no they rely on people committing crime to have fun and rp and when their over response on the majority of calls is so extreme it makes people not want to do crime.
 

In my opinion a bank robbery pursuit if there are only cars should be:
3 Units and 1 Speed Unit

If its a bank robbery with bikes:

3 Units and 1 Motorunit

Mix of cars and bikes:

2 Units, 1 MU FOR BIKE ONLY, 1 SU

 

Mass Shooting, Search and Rescue, and any other situation that NEEDS Air-1

[Crunch]

I'm currently at work so don't have time to respond with much, but I have sat here hiding from my supervisor to read this.
I couldn't but help understand both sides to a degree...
Getting arrested for driving 90mph is kinda excessive if you ask me.
The person driving 91mph is most likely not going to pull over and try to run to avoid a 2 hour jail time.
BUT if it was fine, I think most people would probably pull over and have that RP interaction with the cop, but because they know they will sit in jail, they run, then that causes a bunch more charges to stack up and before you know it, for speeding at 90mph I am sitting in jail for 3 hours.

Not sure how that makes sense, but it is not just the system, it's the player's mentality as well.
I certainly think jail times should be looked at for some things, the 90mph speed should be increased for that charge, and fines can be increased based on levels of severity and history.
Like speeding for me should be based on a strike and fine system, after so many, you encounter jail time. Or a certain speed can get you that jail time off the bat.
catch me speeding at 110 on the highway, check my history, no other speeding charges, you hit me with a fine for whatever +-.
Get pulled over again for doing 96, 110+, check history, see I have a history of that crime, hit me with another fine, but increased.
If I do it again, regardless if it's 90mph or 120, then the excessive amount of times I have committed this crime, should warrant some jail time.

 

Excessive jail time should be based on the crime + history.

BUT also we have players with the mentality of doing things excessively, over and over, which should be kept into account when we talk about these things. I am in no way promoting shitlord activity like that.

Anyway, my boss is probably looking for me, so have to run!



 

[Swiftz]

6 hours ago, Crunch said:

BUT also we have players with the mentality of doing things excessively, over and over, which should be kept into account when we talk about these things.

from what I know I thought the people that did that were dealt with ooc for chain robbing, taking into account the possibility of someone/ group doing that and then basing the prison time/punishment for EVERYONE based on the minority should be what happens. Personally I dont think robbing a bank multiple times in 1 day is bad, if you are taking the time to find someone elses car and steal it make a plan so that you can get away to even be able to rob a bank again that should be fine, and if they use their own cars well thats when like you said the warrants will stack up until they get caught and go to jail for hours on end.

[Crunch]

2 hours ago, Swiftz said:

from what I know I thought the people that did that were dealt with ooc for chain robbing, taking into account the possibility of someone/ group doing that and then basing the prison time/punishment for EVERYONE based on the minority should be what happens. Personally I dont think robbing a bank multiple times in 1 day is bad, if you are taking the time to find someone elses car and steal it make a plan so that you can get away to even be able to rob a bank again that should be fine, and if they use their own cars well thats when like you said the warrants will stack up until they get caught and go to jail for hours on end.

For sure, and I agree.
ie. Like A bank robbery goes off, we certainly don't want the entire police force chasing 3 people.
The issue is, stuff like this dont need to be instant, to chase a car for 50 minutes and have the entire department using multiple vehicles, helicopters, boats, calling in help,, just seems more dangerous than putting boots on the ground and investigating, infiltrating and going deeper then just a 14 car chase cause 3 people stole 250k from a bank..
Use the system, time is on your side, this would bring so much more RP then a criminal cursing you out about how OP the situation was while you are jailing him...
Put out BOLOs, issue warrants if need be, if they get away today, fine, try and find them tomorrow.
 

[Swiftz]

28 minutes ago, Crunch said:

For sure, and I agree.
ie. Like A bank robbery goes off, we certainly don't want the entire police force chasing 3 people.
The issue is, stuff like this dont need to be instant, to chase a car for 50 minutes and have the entire department using multiple vehicles, helicopters, boats, calling in help,, just seems more dangerous than putting boots on the ground and investigating, infiltrating and going deeper then just a 14 car chase cause 3 people stole 250k from a bank..
Use the system, time is on your side, this would bring so much more RP then a criminal cursing you out about how OP the situation was while you are jailing him...
Put out BOLOs, issue warrants if need be, if they get away today, fine, try and find them tomorrow.
 

exactly, 3 people in 1 car that tops out at 140 you dont need MU, SU, Air-1, Spikes, and 3-4 other units for a bank especially if they didnt kill the hostage or do something outragoues.

 

I think also cops not following demands is another part of the issue if no SU and no MU are unreasonable demands now then follow the only other demands we have which is no Air-1 and no spikes but then you take out both those anyway whats the point of even having negotiations and demands if they 1 arent followed or 2 dont even matter. There has been so many times where I leave a bank and instantly Air-1 is on my after requesting no AIr-1 and I cant go back to the bank and kill the hostage to prove a point or I will get banned for NVL or RDM or something else.

[Addylad]

Being on 3 sides of this here is my view:

From a Criminal perspective, times and fines are never going to be accepted as it feels unjustified to spend a large amount of time in jail for one small crime. However I do think that the criminal mindset for a lot of people if "I'm doing this for fun" then when hit with the consequences (which are publically available) they tend to dispute and hate on the system. We have all heard the phrase "if you can't do the crime, then don't do the time" and that has never been truer, people need to be more aware of what they are doing "for fun" before they end up committing offences against half the penal code.

From a DOC perspective, I get asked almost all the time about individual scenarios and how or why a charge may have been added, and quite frankly I have no explanation. I wont bash all cops for this but a lot of the time I tell inmates to fight it because most of the time arrest reports contain little to no information pertaining as to why a charge may have been applied. I see it a lot that a large portion of the police hide behind a DOJ that is incapable of giving the public the justice they deserve and having charges dropped.

Now I haven't been a Cop for over a year however in my previous experiences I never put warrants out unless I had PID. I only charged people with crimes I knew without a doubt would hold up in court, and not once was I ever questioned about any of my arrests. I always made sure my suspects knew why they were being charged with certain charges and it was made explicitly clear in my notes. Can I say all cops do this? They didn't when I was one, and based on my experiences as DOC now, I can see that it continues.

Now in going back to the original point about Jail times, honestly I believe them to be more fair now than they have been in the 2 or more years I've been here. We are seeing overall a reduction in crime and more specifically a reduction in 9s inmates because the system is starting to work. No matter what changes get made you will never please the masses, but those who are on limited time to come into the city, that's kind of on you to not rack up hours of jail time if you can't do it. Even with DOC present there is a limit that we will reduce you down per hour, so again it's a case of be mindful of what you do before you do it.

To tag onto the other convo that kinda got derailed onto here, #BringbackTED. Pursuits should always only have max 4 units, But again I'm not longer a cop, I just hear what the inmates tell me and how pursuits seem to be now. Again I am not bashing or calling anyone out but I hear regularly that lots of units end up in or around the pursuit, people literally smashing cars at over 100MPH, to me that shouldn't be happening (if it even is at all). 
I think the bigger overall issue would be to improve the quality of policing and perhaps they should be taught the penal code and how you can apply it. I know I had to figure most of it out, but with the fact that nearly everybody has access to some sort of dashcam nowadays, surely it would be better to have everybody understand the law and how it applies. As a cop I believe you should be explaining to the arrestee why certain charges were applied instead of them getting put in Rikers and then having to ask DOC about it when we have little to no information to go off other than what the inmates tells us.

[Swiftz]

4 hours ago, Addylad said:

From a Criminal perspective, times and fines are never going to be accepted as it feels unjustified to spend a large amount of time in jail for one small crime. However I do think that the criminal mindset for a lot of people if "I'm doing this for fun" then when hit with the consequences (which are publically available) they tend to dispute and hate on the system. We have all heard the phrase "if you can't do the crime, then don't do the time" and that has never been truer, people need to be more aware of what they are doing "for fun" before they end up committing offences against half the penal code.

Everyone is supposed to be doing crime for fun am I wrong? no one wakes up and goes "hmm I am going to rob a bank today because I want to sit in prison for 6 hours and be bored" and if everysingle person followed "if you can't do the crime, then don't do the time" there would be significantly less crime happening then there already is which I will touch on when I talk about another thing you said. Less crime means more bored cops and for some reason bored cops just want to speed run the process barely talk to you if its a bank negotiation, chase you, taze you, cuff you, and take you to a PD.

 

4 hours ago, Addylad said:

Now in going back to the original point about Jail times, honestly I believe them to be more fair now than they have been in the 2 or more years I've been here. We are seeing overall a reduction in crime and more specifically a reduction in 9s inmates because the system is starting to work. No matter what changes get made you will never please the masses, but those who are on limited time to come into the city, that's kind of on you to not rack up hours of jail time if you can't do it. Even with DOC present there is a limit that we will reduce you down per hour, so again it's a case of be mindful of what you do before you do it.

"more fair now than they have been" is just a complete lie unless you consider harsher to be more fair then sure i guess you are right. You are seeing an overall reduction in crime because there is an overall reduction in criminals, there is a reduction in 9s inmates for the same reason and because DOJ has changed how harsh they are on people getting released/going in for the 9s violations (as far as I know) dont violate probation andmore aswell as most of the time the imates released from 9s get no additional probation meaning they dont break it once and go back in.

[Kyle Turris]

Pretty funny to read peoples views on different things, at the end of the day this is a Video Game no one is going to have "fun" sitting in jail for 3 hours, then not be able to get a gun for 7 days AND then have to sit through probation. Sure there is a DOJ but its been in a really bad place over the last 6 months or so, very similiar to what EMS is going through.

 

If the criminal side has no trade off to crime then the same should be for the other side... People like playing cop right ? Imagine if you are on a cop and you get shot and you have to sit in the ER for 3 hours then have limited duty for the next 7 days not being able to go on patrol. Thats whats being a criminal is in the current times, Charges are stacked, unit count is always 2 or 3 times what should be allowed and when we are caught we are absolutley skalded for doing crime. Then you have the smart ass cop that wants to say " dont do the crime if you cant do the time "... which is prob one of the worst things to ever say in a game that requires 2 sides to work together to ensure that everyone is enjoying their time and having fun.

 

One of the toughest things to ever balance in a city, understanding that there has to be law, but also has to be crime for both sides to really enjoy it. Everyone wants different things, some cop heavy some Criminal heavy but everything will always fail if there is no government that has a unbiased opinion on either side and does the best for "balance". 

 

Unfortunately i think the penalty for doing crime, probation, weapon license removal and the failure of the DOJ system has forced alot of really good people to leave such a great community myself included.